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and I had to try to understand how and why it was made and how it relates to other pieces. I was losing my mind trying to understand this knowledge. It brought me back hundreds and thousands of years, through the old dynasties, to see what people then were concerned with, what ideas they imagined, and how they crafted those ideas into these artifacts. What did they want to remain before their deaths? What meaning did they want another person to discover? It’s a myth, but it is so enjoyable.
And then of course it was at this time, through this epiphany, that you started to literally make the future out of fragments from the past. You started to make art out of these antiquities, and you said in an interview that art is “how we picture ourselves, how we relate to special materials, to textures.” When was it that you suddenly started to use these readymades or found fragments from the past to make things your own way, which grew out of the readymade?
I made readymades because I was deeply influenced by Marcel Duchamp. Duchamp said that you really have to limit the number of readymades, which I totally agree with. The world is a readymade. For me, the Chinese culture and its political condition is a readymade. My involvement gave me a special angle and meaning to interpret those things from my point of view. Before me and after me, whatever the effort, it’s not the same. I am totally, consciously involved with the culture, the environment, and the political struggle there. It is so interesting to me. In some objects, or sculptures, or installations, I used elements from the past in dealing with aesthetic judgment, finding a way to give it a twist or a new definition through our time and practice. That makes an art practice interesting to me.
And what would be the first work where you used antiquities to make art? The very first time?
The very first one was a vase. I had one that was kept in my room. Its color was grey and it looked so dull. However, it was from the Han dynasty, which was 2,000 years ago. I thought I should do something to it. So I painted a Coca-Cola logo on it. It was just funny to make this; the curve and the shape of the vase perfectly suit that kind of drawing. And of course, Coca-Cola is representative of twentieth- century American culture, mass consumption, and a kind of democratic idea. Andy Warhol once said that the president and you drank the same Coke, and there is no difference. To point out this absence of difference is the main quality of the modern contemporary practice of so-called Pop Art. When we are talking about art, in the classic sense, we talk about the uniqueness, or the authenticity, but Warhol played with that idea, and before him, of course Duchamp was the first person who played with it. I think that they were both very successful examples even if their works are very different in appearance.
And then you also started to use furniture for your art and all these archives that could become artworks. But in tandem, you also continued to collect. In this new issue of Cahiers d’Art we’re including a presentation, probably for the first time, of your different collections. Could you tell us a little bit about these different collections? You already mentioned you’ve got the world-leading collection of old Chinese jade. Can you tell us about what attracted you to jade and how this collection is structured? What is in your jade collection?
My jade collection is from the Neolithic period (5000–3000 BCE) until the Zhou dynasty, which was about 1,500 years before Christ. It was a period before written language. Human language was in its earliest form and I realized with the jade that humans spent incredible amounts of time trying to create a perfect piece. We will never be able to calculate how much time they put in, perhaps a lifetime. We still do not know the technology used to create such perfect pieces. It’s fascinating. In modern times, humans only produce things that are practical or profit- driven. This phone, this recording machine or whatever you see is just practical. But why that piece of jade? How practical can that be? What is its purpose?
That is extraordinary!
Yes, it is extraordinary! There must have been people who worshipped some values that we have totally lost, that we don’t understand anymore. Why has all that effort been made? Why such perfection? It fascinates me.
What has been lost?
You are asking a question that you have evidence of, but which is completely lost. You will never get it back because what has been lost is permanently lost.
It is extinct?
Yes. Today, we think what is lost can be easily replaced. Our phone is broken so we buy another and another, or a better one. We can replace anything except for the past. We can never fix it. We cannot buy another one. It’s not possible to replace it.
Your jade collection reminds us about what can be irretrievably lost, and that of course is very relevant to the current moment because we live in an age right now that is an age of mass extinction. Many natural species and animals are disappearing and we might not be able to bring these species back.
In our time, we have the biggest desire. We feel we can do whatever we like and we think that we are absolutely powerful, but at the same time we are suicidal. We make species disappear. We are responsible for crazy climate changes, and we don’t even want to recognize it. The US president doesn’t want to recognize this state of fact, but there are massive changes happening on Earth. This is suicidal. The human race will be wiped out. This is clearly due to capitalist development. The human species will have no future after having ruined everything.
In that sense, it is vital to talk about your collections and important things that were lost, to raise awareness of the need to fight against extinction. Another of your collections is dedicated to textiles. You showed it to me for a long time and we are happy to present some pieces in this issue of Cahiers d’Art. Can you tell us a little bit about that fabric and silk collection?
Textiles are another thing that fascinates me. Before we had such a wonderful material civilization, humans were simply trying to put seeds in the ground so that something would grow in the autumn to feed their families. Or they would kill animals for their skins to cover their bodies. For an agricultural society, to find materials to make a piece of fabric, or clothes, is the most profound knowledge and skill. Romans could not understand how silk was made. They could not fathom that silk is made from the silkworms. How could it be? From a very early age,
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