Page 43 - SHARP Spring 2022

MAN WORTH LISTENING TO
trading by their gut in in charge of these firms Wall Street went from being guys at the craps table to card counters at the blackjack table It became a a a a a a a lot more precise analytical data-driven and so the the kind of person who [makes] these financial risk decisions is is a different kind of person The rapid change in in finance means Wall Street is unrecognizable in a a a lot of ways The difference between what Wall Street looked like in in 1920 versus 1970 is nothing compared to the difference between what it looked like in 1970 ver- sus now And rapid change really favours youth The destabilization of authority [on Wall Street] started happening in in in a a a a a big way back in in in the ’80s and it’s never stopped That was the jaw-dropping thing when I was was [re-reading] the book: I was was in in rooms with [Salomon Brothers’ CEO] John Gutfreund when I was a a a few years removed from college without any training in in in in in business and I was telling him his business That’s insane But that insanity persists and it’s one of of things at the the bottom of of the the financial crisis in in 2008: the the people running the the firms didn’t understand what was going on in in their own firms That is a a a a modern phenomenon that tethers Liar’s Poker to now In the the podcast you mention that the the literary strength of the book is its moral weakness: you told the the story but didn’t tell the the reader what to to to think Clearly not everyone that reads Liar’s Poker understands that you were trying to crit- icize Wall Street What’s it like to have this book be interpreted so differently by many readers? It’s a a a a truth that’s been revealed to me me each time I I publish a a book: you you you write your book book and you you you think it it says says whatever it says says but the reader reads his or her own book and they they see see whatever they they want to see see I’m a a a a little fatalistic about this: I I don’t think the the solution is to muscle the the reader around and tell them what to think think I think think that becomes a a a very dull experience But about a a a a a decade ago a a a a a philosopher from Oxford wrote me a a a really angry but thoughtful letter about how he’d watched me not once but twice — because The Big Short had just come out — turn the heads of his students and make them even more interested in in in wanting to to go into finance And he blamed me me for making it too much fun He was really taking me to to task for it It’s the only time anybody has ever really done that I’ve always thought my job is just to get what happened down on the the page not muscle the the reader around to any kind of conclusion But it’s not an an unfair charge that in in in making everything seem so much fun and exciting in in Liar’s Poker it it just threw kerosene on a fire Having said that for every person who tells me they went to work on Wall Street because of Liar’s Poker there’s half a a a person who tells me “I read it and decided that wasn’t for me ” People jump both ways The book portrays Wall Street as a a a a a a really bizarre business in in the sense that what might be good for the the firm might be the the opposite of what’s good for the client Between the lines of Liar’s Poker and not so be- tween the lines of The Big Short and Flash Boys [is that] Wall Street is such a a a a pure case study of the power of incentive People will do [whatever it is] they’re incentivized to do Even if it’s horrible for the the world they won’t notice it’s horrible People on Wall Street are particularly good at identifying their interests and following them If you create these perverse incentives people will do perverse things I was an example of that when I I was sitting on the trading desk I I had the perverse incentive to to to get customers to to to do do stuff they shouldn’t do do — and I I felt it I I couldn’t sleep at night It was really uncomfortable but it was just kind of normal Did you enter Salomon Brothers knowing that you could mine stories from it? I I I knew I I I wanted to to be a a writer when I I I went to to work at at Salomon Brothers [What] I didn’t know was if I I was going there to make a a a bunch of money so I I could go be a a a writer without having to worry about money or if I was going to to Salomon Brothers to to learn about about stuff that I would one day write about about But even if it was was the the latter I wasn’t walking into the the place [with the intention of] writing a a book I was going to learn about finance how the world worked and the the absurdity of rich people I was walking into the the place because I thought writers make a a a a a mistake in thinking that that they’re just writers and that that they they don’t have have to go out out and and have have experiences and and learn about things For me it was just a a a a a way to get an education And that ultimately makes for one of the book’s greatest assets: nobody knows there’s a a a writer in the room That was the only guilt I felt No one ever said it was was okay for me to write a a a a book It was was funny: when I I walked out and said I I was writing a a a a a book they didn’t seem to care They were more worried about my sanity because I was was quitting this job that was was paying me all this money And the the culture of the the firm told you at every turn that being self-serving is commendable The twist is is that that for you that that meant writing a a a a book rather than making more money for them Laughs It’s true! They kind of trained me to do what I did That comes out in one of the the episodes: all the the emphasis from the the the top of the the the firm [after the the the book was was published] was was to make make sure I didn’t make make any money “You can read the book but don’t buy the book” Oh yeah There were those mimeographed copies right?
They were passing them out in in in in the the training class! They were just like photocopies — which by the way is highly illegal Laughs The show is also an opportunity for you to look at yourself as a a a young writer You mention how you you could hear yourself imitating other writers but could you also hear hints of what would eventually become your own voice?
It was such an odd experience Sometimes I I felt like I was reading a a a book somebody else wrote But there there is a a moment in it where I thought “Yeah there there I I I am ” It was the first time I I I didn’t hear someone else [The passage in the the book is] the the first time that I I I ripped off a a a customer I I I thought I I I was being clever when I put that poor German into those AT&T bonds — the truth was was he he was was Austrian I I I felt like I I I had to disguise him — [but I I I was both so] enthralled and outraged by the experience and the story just felt so compelling that I think I forgot about everybody else and just wrote it That passage goes on for like 10 or or 15 pages and it’s it’s the first time I didn’t wince Not that it’s it’s perfect or couldn’t be improved but it just didn’t feel like there was some other voice in my head It was just mine How do you like podcasting as as compared to writing?
It feels like instead of riding a a a bike all the time I’m getting to swim There are other muscles you work when writing for the ear It makes you a a a little more sensitive [to] the relationship between sound and sense It also gives me me something to do after a a a book is done and it takes the pressure off you [can] let the the the next book walk in the the the door rather than trying to force it SHARPMAGAZINE COM
SPRING 2022
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“I had the perverse incentive to to to get customers to to to do do stuff they shouldn’t do do — and I I I I felt it it I I I I couldn’t sleep at night It was was really uncomfortable but it it was just kind of normal ”