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talk to or anything else than it is to flunk two or three out. Or flunk one out of
two or three when you have communication between them.

Ivan: You know, it's ironic you are talking about a situation that happened in 1960, and

I think it would be interesting for me to see data from people that are going in
here in the late 2000s when the influx of African-American pilots in the pilot
training bases is small, and kind of wondering, you know, if they're going through
similar things here, what 45 years later; Fifty, Fifty years later.

Bill: Yes.

Ivan: You know, because of the low numbers that are getting in, you know, and now
you are giving me some great stuff. When I first saw your 36 hours of training;
that was huge to me; because in the book, I was talking about how the Tuskegee

airmen had FAST- not FAST, but CPTP Commercial Pilot Training Program. I talked
about FAST in my book that it was an unfunded Air Force program. You know,
why didn't they give prior flight hours to people before they got to pilot training?
So when I saw your comment there about the 36 hour flying program, I went,
"Wow. I never heard of that," you know, so that really was huge news for me,
you know. I don't know why they wouldn't continue to do that for all students,
black, white, you know.

Bill: Well, yeah, it wasn't mainly for black or white. It was just for university students
who were in advanced ROTC or planned to go to pilot training.

Ivan: Yeah I mean because you go to … when I did the research in 2003, they don't
even teach fundamentals of flight in ROTC anymore. They say that most…

Bill: Oh they don’t?

Ivan: No. Because at the Academy was mandatory. In 2003 I was talking to the people
that run ROTC at the Pentagon and at San Antonio, and they were saying well
the majority of people that go through ROTC don't become pilots anyway, so we
don't put it in the curriculum. I mean is this Air Force ROTC?

Bill: It is the Air Force. Ivan: Yeah. Pitch, roll, etc. We had to take basic
navigation, you had to take, fundamentals of flight then we had to take a full
semester of Aero, Astro, I mean you, at the Academy you had more time,
obviously to do it, but I was amazed that at ROTC they didn’t even teach

Fundamentals of Flight, let alone have a flying program.