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to make the same mistakes time after time, year in and Question: Examples?
year out. It is absolutely crazy!! Kerr: Well, take Goldman Sachs before the money dried
Question: Is this propensity something unique to the up in 2008. People worked very hard and their motiva-
United States or is it a global phenomenon? tion didn’t seem to diminish at all. Interestingly, during
Kerr: It is interesting that you ask that question. While we that period, I helped build a course called motivating
all tend to make the same mistakes, there are certainly without money. Although people loved the course, as
cultural differences. For example, the Japanese are as soon as the money came back, management scrapped
devoted to hiding accountability as we are to locating the course and went back to overpaying people.
it. For Americans, the first question asked if something Question: You list four causes of the Folly in your classic
goes wrong is: Who did this? Bring me the person article (Kerr, 1975, 1995). The first involves a fascina-
responsible for this occurrence. We teach that “the tion with an “objective” criterion. The second involves
early bird gets the worm” emphasizing our entrepre- the overemphasis on highly visible behavior. The third
neurial spirit, while the Japanese subscribe to “the nail involves hypocrisy. Fourth, and finally, involves the
that sticks up gets hammered down.” So, for the emphasis on morality or equity rather than efficiency.
Japanese, the overarching goal is that nobody loses Do these all continue to ring true today? Is there a fifth
face. I was able to understand the implications of all or sixth cause?
this because Thompson (1967) taught me that there are Kerr: I think I would combine causes 1 and 2.
three types of interdependence. Overemphasizing objective and visible are both just
Question: The beginning of your career in the late 1960s ways of being seduced by what’s easy to measure. So,
was a very fertile time for seminal management theo- I would just combine them. Remember, the key to my
ries, especially as they relate to the topic of motivation argument is simple: It is important to measure what is
and reward systems. Which of these theories (and the- important to measure. It is not important to measure
orists) were of particular influence in your thinking as what is easy to measure.
you developed the “Folly”? Question: So, we now have three causes?
Kerr: Of course, as mentioned earlier, I was strongly Kerr: Yes, but I would also like to elaborate further on
influenced by the work of B. F. Skinner and operant hypocrisy as a cause. Hypocrisy got limited coverage in
conditioning. Bob House continued to develop the my original article. I think it was something like three
path goal theory based upon expectancy theory which sentences and no real definition. I don’t know if hypoc-
helped inform my thinking in that area. Frederick risy is a fair and complete label for what I originally
Taylor’s (1911) work on the importance of extrinsic meant. Today, hypocrisy has come to mean that someone
rewards was helpful, although too narrow. Just paying is not only inaccurate or false, but also sleazy, as in lying
them a good wage and then treating them poorly for personal gain. I acknowledge that here is where it can
always seemed problematic to me. Frederick get difficult. As a current example, what if a high-pow-
Herzberg’s (1966) two-factor approach distinguishing ered individual believes that downsizing the military will
between motivator and hygiene factors was also inter- be very harmful to the long-term interests and social bet-
esting. He postulated that although such hygiene fac- terment of the United States. However, she knows that the
tors as pay could prevent dissatisfaction, they could majority of people won’t accept any decision to increase
not truly motivate employee behavior. This was con- the size of the military, reinstitute the draft or whatever
sistent with the work of Argyris (1964) and suggested she knows to be necessary. No matter the logic and hon-
the importance of intrinsic motivation. Finally, Deci’s esty, they won’t accept it. Assuming that this leader is
(1975) work was also interesting to me as it made truly acting in the best interests of the social good, is it an
explicit the possible inverse relationship between act of hypocrisy to misrepresent the facts? Or, is it some-
intrinsic and extrinsic motivations. thing else? I do not know, but I certainly would combine
Question: How would you sum up the work on motiva- causes 1 and 2 and end up with three causes in total.
tion and where do you fit in the equation? Question: So, from your answer, hypocrisy can get con-
Kerr: Simply put, if Taylor believed that motivation was founded with the original cause 4, the emphasis on
entirely extrinsic (E); Herzberg focused on the impor- morality or equity rather than efficiency?
tance of intrinsic (I), while Deci (1975) was inter- Kerr: Yes, there are a million examples of where equity
ested in situations where extrinsic took away from can get political. Your readers can each generate
intrinsic (I − E). I guess you could say that I was numerous ones without much effort.
focused on circumstances where intrinsic and extrin- Question: This reminds us of The Editors (1995) com-
sic combined (I + E). Why can’t we create situations mentary following the republication of the “Folly” in
where people are paid really good money to do what the Academy of Management Executive: IT’S THE
they really like to do? REWARD SYSTEM, STUPID! I guess that says a lot?