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FACE TO FACE | EASTERN HORIZON 19

our moral evaluation of them, leading us to kinds and just suddenly have the experience
judge them more harshly than we otherwise of not-self; I envy them. But, I think, for most
would. So it stands to reason that if you have people, it’s going to be more incremental than
a meditative practice that lets you start seeing that. I think there can be a direct connection
things without such pervasive influence from between the kind of practice that’s sometimes
feelings and emotions, you would start seeing dismissed as merely therapeutic and the kind
things more clearly, because you’re escaping that’s deeply spiritual and philosophical.
the fundamental mechanism of delusion.
How has having a meditation practice
While you are only interested in what changed your own life?
you describe as the “naturalistic parts”
of Buddhism, you engage with Buddhist Well, on the one hand, it has helped me deal
meditation in a way that goes beyond those with anxiety and also with stress. At the end of
who see it mostly as a palliative technique the day, if I’m feeling stressed out, I’ll sit down
or productivity tool. Meditation for you is a and meditate for a while. But, at the same
way to pursue enlightenment or, at least, a time, I have seen how doing that can lead to
way to become more enlightened. something deeper, especially when on retreat.

Yes, that’s right. Although, I also wanted While on retreat, I’ve occasionally had the
to draw a connection between those two experience that the bounds of myself had
things. In other words, I wanted to convince dissolved. As I described one experience
people that, even if their practice is basically in Why Buddhism is True, I felt that a bird
therapeutic—they’re just using meditation for singing outside the meditation hall was no
stress reduction or something—they may be less a part of me than a tingling in my foot.
on the path to a deeper exploration that can If you look at what paved the way for that
be enlightening. I think, for example, if you experience, I think a big part of it is viewing
change the way you relate to your anxiety in various things that I normally think of as part
such a way that you’re no longer identifying of myself with less attachment. The interior
with it, then I think you could see that as an of my mind was feeling more diffuse than
incremental realization of not-self. usual, was feeling less aggregated than usual,
precisely because I was not closely identifying
In fact, this view is consistent with the spirit with it. And I think that’s one reason there
of what the Buddha said in his Discourse on seemed to be more continuity between what
Not-Self. He goes through the different parts I normally think of as the interior of me and
of the mind and basically says: “Does it really what I normally think of as the exterior. This
make sense to view this part of the mind as made it harder to say where my “self” ended
part of yourself? You can’t control it. It leads and the world out there began.
to affliction. Do yourself a favor and don’t
think of it as yourself.” And yet, by the end of I think this is morally significant, by the
the Discourse, he says: “And if you do this with way. To the extent that you don’t see a big
everything you had previously considered boundary between you and the world out
yourself, you will have achieved complete there, you’re probably going to see less of a
liberation.” moral distinction between your welfare and
the welfare of beings out there. And, of course,
I think some people may be fortunate enough this is part of Buddhist teaching: there can
to have spontaneous awakenings of various be a connection between the experiential