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18 EASTERN HORIZON | FACE TO FACE

the environment in which humans evolved. Not-self is both a metaphysical and a moral
So things like public speaking induce anxiety claim. As for the metaphysical dimension of
in a lot of people—and even to a clearly the claim—or, if you prefer, the psychological
counterproductive extent, like when you can’t dimension—there is a lot of evidence in
sleep the night before a presentation—but, of psychology that our intuitions about the
course, there weren’t big public talks in our self are just wrong. We tend to think of the
natural environment. We’re just not designed self as a kind of conscious CEO, thinking
to deal with that kind of situation at all. thoughts and making decisions, yet there’s
a lot of evidence to suggest that human
In the public speaking example, there’s a form consciousness is more like an observer of the
of suffering that would be natural in hunter- thoughts and decisions that are unconsciously
gather societies—anxiety—but it is evoked generated. But we are under the impression
in a novel way that was not “intended” by that consciousness is the generator. It’s like a
natural selection. So, while it’s connected to passenger of a plane thinking that he or she is
natural selection, you wouldn’t say that this flying the plane.
suffering is some kind of direct product of
natural selection. There’s actual experimental evidence showing
that people make up stories about why they
Can you give an example of dukkha or did certain things and then they believe the
suffering when it’s functioning as natural stories. So they’re making up stories on an
selection “intended”? unconscious level. We also tend to think we’re
very good people, better than average. It can’t
Yes. Say you’re hiking and you know that there really be the case that most people are better
are poisonous snakes around. Every time you than average morally, and yet study after study
hear a rustling in the underbrush you will feel shows that most people think they are. We
a surge of fear and you become more alert. have these kinds of basic misconceptions about
That fear is suffering, but it’s suffering that’s ourselves. We believe there’s more in the way
functioning as “designed.” Of course, there of a “CEO self” than there is, and we’re inclined
might not even be a snake there so your fear to think that this “self” is an exemplary citizen.
can be the result of an illusion. That’s a case
where natural selection favors a false positive, How can Buddhist practice help us see
so to speak, on the grounds that you’re better through some of our basic misconceptions
safe than sorry. about ourselves and the world?

So I would distinguish between times we I think that by quieting the mind sufficiently
suffer when we are operating as “designed,” you actually start liberating yourself from
so to speak, and times we suffer when some of the mechanisms of distortion that
what we’re experiencing is a natural natural selection built in. When I say that, I’m
form of suffering misfiring because of the thinking particularly of feelings. Beginning
environment we’re in. with just aversion and grasping—the
basic dichotomy between avoidance and
You mentioned that one of the Buddhist approach—and building all the way up to the
ideas you defend in the book is not-self— complex emotions, I think all of these things
the claim that, in some sense, the self are natural selection’s way of controlling
doesn’t really exist. Can you say more our perceptions and our thoughts. So, for
about not-self? example, feelings of dislike for a rival color